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Minutes of the December 2011 Marsh Landing Country Club December 14, 2011
The Annual Meeting of Team Representatives began promptly at 9:30 a.m. at Marsh Landing Country Club. Roy Gulick, the meeting facilitator, welcomed everyone and introduced the 23 participants.
· Appendix A lists the meeting participants · Appendix B lists the action items from the meeting
PROCEEDINGS
A. Report from the Tournament Chairman
Barney Poston began the meeting by thanking John Arnold, the Team Rep of Marsh Landing Country Club, for hosting and arranging the meeting. He expressed his thanks to the Marsh Landing Club management and staff for supporting the meeting, lunch, and golf.
He noted that we had just lost Ponte Vedra Inn and Club, reducing our number of Clubs to 15. The stated reason that they left was that our course lengths are too long and the matches take too long to complete. Their resignation was amiable, and they have agreed to honor their commitment to host their scheduled MSIS match on Monday, February 13. Asked if we would seek to add a replacement club, Barney said that there was no active pursuit of another club.
On a similar note, Barney turned to Bill Walker, Team Rep of the other Ponte Vedra Club, Ponte Vedra Golf and Country Club at Sawgrass, and said he had heard some rumors and asked Bill how his Club was faring. Bill said that in his own opinion, his Club is in poor shape and may go under. Moving on to finances, Barney noted that during the 2011 season we pumped over $70,000 into the local golf economy. We ended the 2011 MSIS Season with $262 in our bank account. He mentioned that the Team Reps had previously authorized the purchase of more Netbook computers, and that he would purchase them if it appears that we can shorten the time required for post-match scoring. More computers will require more volunteers from the host Club.
Barney noted that attendance is down, that more Clubs are experiencing problems filling their eight slots. He said he didn't know why, other than the economy. A long day was suggested as a reason, but that has always been the case.
He next addressed technology improvements in scoring, which will cost money and will be addressed by Mr. Smooth, Jack Garrity, in his forthcoming presentation. He asked Team Reps to find out if High Definition Television (HDTV) Monitors are available at their Clubs for displaying scoring results.
Action. Team Reps find out if your Club has HDTV available for to display the scoring results. Let Barney Poston and Jack Garrity know.
B. REPORT FROM THE SCHEDULING CHAIRMAN
Tony DeMarco began by discussing the next Brady Cup Match venue. He said that Deerwood has indicated their interest in hosting the event for us again in 2012. Other Clubs that we spoke with in the past include Palencia, but they don't have a sufficient number of golf carts and pricing was a problem; Amelia National, but the cart fleet is too small, and they could not handle the food service requirement; Ponte Vedra Inn & Club, an excellent venue and, since they have left MSIS, they are again eligible for consideration as a Brady Cup Match host; North Hampton, a tough Arnold Palmer course where we played a few years ago, but they could be undergoing ownership change stemming from LandMar bankruptcy. Tony asked if there were any suggestions for other clubs to consider, but there were none. Next Tony talked about electronic documentation he uses to schedule our matches. Last year all matches were scheduled and documented electronically using Word documents and PDF files via email. The process was relatively smooth, with postage and handling reduced significantly. He added that within the next year all of our Member Clubs will have been exposed to the new electronic scheduling process, and some will be on their second contracts using this method. He asked if there was any value to his public relations efforts. Specifically, he asked if anyone had read the Times-Union sports page summary of our matches. A large number of participants nodded that they had. There was general consensus for Tony to continue to continue to publish. Action. The Scheduling Chairman should continue to publish the MSIS results. Tony turned next to the 2012 Schedule, as follows:
B. REPORT FROM MR. SMOOTH (Jack Garrity) Jack Garrity presented what he characterized as a Tech Talk using graphs and slides. He said that he would, on request by Team Reps, provide a copy of his graphs and slides. Action. Mr. Smooth to provide copies of his graphs and slides if Team Reps so request. Jack showed an MSIS performance database that plotted MSIS scores over 2011 and over the period 2006-2011, both producing a skewed normal distribution curve. He said the results were typical. He also addressed the odds of shooting an exceptional score, by handicap. He explained that differences between MSIS and the USGA data are explained by the USGA using the best 10 scores of the last 20, whereas MSIS uses the best three scores of the last six. He talked about the handicap strokes allotted to particular holes, explaining that two methods are recommended and commonly used, one for match play and the other for Stableford play. For Stableford play, the USGA Handicap System Manual states that “…it may be appropriate to develop a separate allocation table based on difficulty relative to par.” Jack next addressed the pace of play, and noted that our pace of play really isn't too bad considering the time of actual play on the courses. He showed data collected at Torrey Pines South Course that indicated that hitting up on par-3 holes might save 26 minutes. This was actively discussed by the participants, who thought it was worth a try. A motion was made and seconded to have the Tournament Chairman encourage groups who have arrived on par-3 greens to allow those waiting on the tee box to hit up. Use common sense. The motion was seconded and carried.
Action. The Tournament Chairman should encourage those on par-3 greens to let the group waiting on the tee hit. He will do this by including an item in his event opening remarks. The remark will be, “Once your group is on the putting surface of a par 3 hole, please stand aside in a safe area and invite the group on the tee to hit away.”
A second motion was made to consider starting two groups on each of the par-3 holes. The motion was seconded and carried.
Action. The Tournament Chairman should consider requesting two starting groups on par-3 holes (although we usually do that now). Next, Jack touched on scoring area improvements. We tried an electronic scoreboard at Queen's Harbour. When this system is finalized, we could save 20 minutes on the day. Another time saver would be to use optical mark read (OMR) technology, in which players mark hole-by-hole scores on a special card that is later scanned at the scoring tables. He estimated this would save another 20-30 minutes on the day. He said that his future work will focus on these topics: · Can flights be leveraged to speed play? · Should host clubs load Stableford handicap allocations? · Should we explore the scorecard scanning system and alternatives, such as speech recognition? DISCUSSION
1. Should We Have a Match in December? - Glenn Dobrick, Sawgrass Glenn suggested that we should have only the Team Reps meeting in December, since several Clubs have trouble getting players that month. After a brief discussion, there was general agreement that it would be wise to take December off. Barney Poston reinforced that, saying it was a good idea and he would recommend that. Glenn made a motion to schedule no matches in December. It was seconded and carried.
Action. The Scheduling Chairman should schedule no matches in December, and reschedule the December 2012 match at St. Johns to January 2013.
Action. The St. Johns Team Rep, Bob White, should coordinate that change with Tony DeMarco.
Action. Change the season to a calendar-year season: January to December, with the Brady Cup match in November, no match in December, and the Team Reps Meeting in December.
2. Elect Team Reps to a One-Year Term as an MSIS Officer (Pres., V.P. S/T)? - Bill Basney, San Jose Bill suggested that MSIS should become a more formal business organization with three officers manned by Team Reps. He asked if we had Bylaws, and was told that we do not, although we have Rules that resemble Bylaws. Bill said that the advantage of a more formal organization is that it would provide for succession and continuity of operations. A discussion arose about the duties of the officers (what would they actually do?) and their relationships with the existing structure of Tournament Chairman and Scheduling Chairman. After further discussion, a motion was made to establish the three officers, but it failed for lack of a second. 3. Problem Solving: Suggestions to Speed up Play - Gary Owensby, Eagle Harbor
Gary made several recommendation s to speed up play. These included: - Reducing team size to six players vice eight - Dividing into two smaller groups of teams with separate matches - Penalizing players if their scorecard is not turned in within 4 hours, 45 minutes
His recommendations produced a lively discussion and debate on those three suggestions and other similar recommendations. After discussion, two motions were introduced, as follows. First, a motion was made that Team Reps should be appointed foursome Captains, and should themselves appoint one other team member as a foursome Captain. Foursome Captains would be responsible for their foursome's pace of play. After a discussion of the practicality of doing this and its pros and cons, this motion was withdrawn. Second, a motion was made to reduce team size from eight to six members. That motion was seconded and carried by a margin of two votes. The reduction of team size from eight players to six caused a follow-on discussion about the effective date of the change, because contracts with Clubs are already in place that cite eight players per team. A motion was made that the Scheduling Chairman should contact Clubs already under contract to see if they can be amended to provide for only six players. That motion was seconded and carried. However, during subsequent discussions, one Team Rep cautioned that the reduction in team size from eight players to six players was approved hastily and deserved further consideration and more discussion. Many other Team Reps joined in agreement with that. After further discussion of cutting the team size, a motion was made to rescind the previously approved reduction in team size from eight to six. The motion was seconded and carried over-whelmingly. The team size will remain eight.
4. Course Setup - Bill Basney, San Jose Bill started a general discussion about pin placements, prompted by the recent match at Queen's Harbour and its Hole #13. Right at the outset, Barney Poston said that he owed an apology to Co-Team Rep Ray Mantle of Queen's Harbour, because he had complained to Ray about pin placements without having pertinent information about what had happened at Queen's Harbour the day before the match. Having later heard from Ray that their Pro abruptly left without passing on any information about the MSIS match, Barney said that he was grateful to Ray that the match at Queen's Harbour was played at all. The Team Reps continued a discussion of pin placements and agreed that pins should generally be set in the centers of greens without giving, or appearing to give, any undue advantage to the home team. This in turn led to a discussion about course lengths, with several observations made that the courses we play are being set at longer yardages. The Team Reps suggested that the course length for MSIS matches be 6,000 yards or less, not more. Several noted that the Clubs have a leeway of about 180 yards from a rated set of tees, and can accommodate 6,000 yards. The Tournament Chairman reminded Team Reps that our Rules state that he will request rated tees closest to 6,000 yards. He will offer a vote by the Team Reps on future venue tees and lengths. He will encourage Team Reps to vote for tees shorter than we have played in the past.
Action. The Tournament Chairman should request pins be placed in easy locations for speed of play. They should be away from traps, and tournament type locations should be avoided. The center of the green would be nice as long as it meets these requirements.
Action. The Tournament Chairman will offer a vote by the Team Reps on future venue tees and lengths. Team Reps will be encouraged to vote for tees shorter than we have played in the past.
Action. The Tournament Chairman and Mr. Smooth must make sure their software reflects the slope, rating, and stroke allocation tables of tees we have not used in the past.
5. MSIS Rules: Conduct and Disqualification - Glenn Dobrick, Sawgrass Glenn presented several recent examples of poor conduct and behavior by players, adding that we should not tolerate this. Ray Mantle, a certified Rules Official, noted that the USGA Rules address this issue and permit the Committee to take various actions in response to poor conduct, including disqualification. After discussion, a proposal was made to establish a three-man Committee to review conduct and possible disqualification on reported bad behavior by a player. After more discussion, a motion to establish such a committee was seconded and carried. Several volunteered, led by Dave Spring.
Action. Dave Spring will organize the Conduct Committee and coordinate with the Tournament Chairman on how this committee will proceed.
6. Missing Scorecards - Bob Wildner, Magnolia Point Bob asked if there were any additional steps that could be taken to remedy the problem of missing scorecards. One suggestion was that a sign be placed in a conspicuous place to remind players to submit their scorecard. Follow-on discussion resulted in a consensus that all Team Reps should ensure that all of their team's scorecards are given to the scorekeepers in a timely manner.
Action. Team Reps should ensure that all of their team's scorecards are given to the scorekeepers in a timely manner.
Action. Team Reps should ask for a sign on the Team dining tables that we use at most Clubs that reads: “HAVE YOU TURNED IN YOUR SCORECARD?” 7. Repeal the Second Paragraph of Rule 6.4: Player Not Present - Bill Basney, San Jose
Bill noted that the current Rule reads, "When an individual player fails to show up, he shall be assessed a $10 penalty and his team may not play in subsequent competitions until the fine is paid. This applies to a player who has been listed on the team roster but then fails to show up without providing a substitute player." He said that rule was unfair to those who were no-shows due to an emergency, and gave a recent example concerning one of his players. That produced a lively discussion. A participant made a motion to define "no show", but that motion failed for lack of a second. After further discussion of the pros and cons of the Rule, Bill made a motion to repeal the second paragraph of Rule 6.4. The motion was seconded, but failed to carry. 8. Rising Costs - Bill Bremner, Queen's Harbour
Bill discussed several recommendations to counter rising costs. He suggested that we eliminate the $8 per man prize money and thereby move back to $55 per match. That would give the Clubs $3 more in cart fees to compensate for the lost Pro Shop prize markup. He also noted that the vast majority of participants don’t need more stuff from another Club’s Pro Shop, that we all support our own Club’s Pro Shop. He said that if we eliminate the prizes, the focus of the day would stay on playing a round of golf with good people from different clubs on different courses followed by lunch. Those wanting to wait for results could do so, others can check our Web site the next day. Waiting for results, followed by 32 golfers descending in mass on another Club’s Pro Shop trying to decide how to use their credit on things they don’t really need, get in line and get checked out, and then get home, all makes for a long day. After discussion, Bill made a motion to eliminate the $8 per man prize cost, and return to the $55 tournament fee. The motion was seconded, but failed to carry. 9. Play the Brady Cup at One of our MSIS Courses, not at a Neutral Course - Bob Wildner, Magnolia Point Bob observed that if we play at one of our own courses, then we keep our money in our circle of Clubs. He suggested that we play the final Brady Cup Match at the last place team's course. That gives them a chance to climb the ladder and not finish last. Some Team Reps noted that there would be a serious scheduling problem if we did that, because of the delay involved in identifying the last place team. Other difficulties were discussed. Bob then made a motion that we play the Brady Cup Match at the last place team's course. The motion was seconded, but failed to carry.
10. Each Club may Designate One and Only One Team Rep - Barney Poston, Tournament Chairman
After a brief discussion, Barney withdrew this topic. 11. No Golf Outing at the Team Reps Meeting - Barney Poston, Tournament Chairman Barney noted that we always have a full agenda for our meetings, and always seem to be rushed to get through the agenda and get out on the golf course. He proposed eliminating golf. Others countered that, suggesting that we keep the golf but get started earlier, as early as 8 a.m. That prompted suggestions of 8:30 and 9 a.m. A point was made that some Team Reps have a long way to travel to get to the meetings and would appreciate a later starting time. A follow-on suggestion surfaced that having just one meeting a year isn't sufficient, that quarterly meetings would be better. Still others suggested having two meetings a year. After a discussion of the pros and cons of the various suggestions: golf or no golf, two or four meetings a year and the various starting times, a proposal was made to schedule two Team Rep Meetings each year, in June and December, and start them at 9 a.m. with lunch and golf to follow. The proposal was seconded and carried. Asked who would host the June meeting, Bill Basney and Bill Bremner simultaneously volunteered. Bill Bremner then deferred to Bill Basney for both the June meeting and the December meeting.
Action. The Scheduling Chairman should schedule two Team Rep Meetings each year, in June and December, starting at 9 a.m., with lunch and golf to follow.
Action. Bill Basney will host the June and December meetings at San Jose Country Club.
12. Brady Cup. Eliminate Door Prizes. - Jock Ochiltree, World Golf Village
Jock said that eliminating door prizes would reduce costs, shorten the Brady Cup Match day, and let the players focus only on golf. Barney noted that the practice of awarding door prizes was instituted in order to encourage participants to remain after lunch to ensure a larger audience when the Brady Cup Champion was officially announced. After discussion, Jock withdrew his suggestion to eliminate door prizes.
The Team Reps then turned to a general discussion of prize money for the season's top 12 teams. A motion was made to pay only the top four teams, and use the balance of the prize money for additional door prizes. The motion was seconded and carried.
Action. The Tournament Chairman should pay only the season's top four teams (pay about the same amounts as 2011), and use the balance of the prize money for additional nice door prizes like the $100 dinner certificates.
13. Brady Cup Match Door Prize Drawings. Must You be Present to Win? - Skip Lunsford, Jacksonville G&CC Skip pointed out that as it stands now, you must be present to win a door prize. But it doesn't seem fair that the prizes are restricted to only those who are present. Many dedicated players during the year will not make the team for the Brady Cup match for various reasons but have contributed as much or more than those actually playing on the team that day. They may be ill, injured, out of town, or whatever, and simply unable to attend, or it might be very inconvenient for them to drive to the drawing that day. Let's not penalize them. Others agreed, but suggested that Brady Cup Match team members must remain after play and be present to win a door prize. After discussion, Skip made a proposal to allow Team Reps to accept a prize for his players who are not present, provided they were not on his Brady Cup Match Team. The motion was seconded and carried.
Action. The Tournament Chairmen must assure that anyone who played during a year has an opportunity to win door prizes whether he is present or not, and that players who actually played in the Brady Cup match MUST be present in order to win a door prize. 14. Total Time Commitment of Events, and Pace of Play - Bill Bremner, Queen's Harbour Bill had suggested that each home club provide a ranger, assistant Pro, or Pro, to monitor the pace of play and warn any group not keeping up to speed up or pick up. If after two more holes they still are not keeping up, then they are told to pick up, take zeroes on the hole, and move on. Or, alternatively, if a group is not keeping up and is holding up the group behind them, all players in the group are told to add ONE penalty stroke to their score for that hole. If, after two more holes, they still are not keeping up, they are each told to add TWO penalty strokes to their scores for that hole. If later in the round, they again are not keeping up, they are again told to each add TWO strokes to their scores for that hole. This topic was partially discussed as part of Topic #3. A follow-on discussion identified various methods to resolve this problem, but no action was suggested, and no motion was made.
Adjournment. The Meeting adjourned at 12:20 p.m.
Chairmen _ __________ Tournament Chairman Barney Poston, Hidden Hills Scheduling Chairman Tony DeMarco, Osprey Cove
Team Reps _____________________ Deercreek Dave Noble Eagle Harbor Gary Owensby Hidden Hills Mark Morrison " Allen Witham, Prospective Team Rep Jacksonville G&CC Skip Lunsford Magnolia Point Bob Wildner " Mike Keyes, Assistant Team Rep Marsh Creek Dave Spring Marsh Landing John Arnold " Dennis Craft, Prospective Team Rep Orange Park Joe Pierce Osprey Cove Tony DeMarco, Acting for Team Rep Jack Hoey Ponte Vedra G&CC Bill Walker Queens Harbour Bill Bremner " Ray Mantle, Co-Team Rep St. Johns Bob White San Jose Bill Basney Sawgrass Glenn Dobrick World Golf Village Jock Ochiltree
Meeting Support __ ________________ Facilitator Roy Gulick, Magnolia Point Recorder Duncan Hamner, Magnolia Point Mr. Smooth Jack Garrity, Eagle Harbor
APPENDIX B - Action Items
Tournament Chairman
· Request that pins be placed in easy locations for speed of play. They should be away from traps, and tournament type locations should be avoided. The center of the green would be nice as long as it meets these requirements
· Offer a vote by the Team Reps on future venue tees and lengths. Encourage Team Reps to vote for tees shorter than we have played in the past
· Working with Mr. Smooth, make sure our software reflects the slope, rating, and stroke allocation tables of tees we have not used in the past
Scheduling Chairman
· Continue to publish the MSIS results in the Times-Union
· Survey Member Clubs to see if a reduced field would be an issue in hosting our matches
Mr. Smooth
· Provide copies of your tech talk graphs and slides if Team Reps so request
· Working with the Tournament Chairman, make sure our software reflects the slope, rating, and stroke allocation tables of tees we have not used in the past
Team Reps
· All Team Reps should find out if your Club has HDTV available for to display the scoring results. Let Barney Poston and Jack Garrity know
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